Buyer Agency

Welcome to the Leading Lane podcast for Real Estate Pros by Real Estate Pros, with your hosts, Ashley Frederick and Steven Burch. If you're looking for an honest, authentic, and raw perspective, you found it. All right, what are we talking about today? Whatever your little heart desires. Did you get my text the other day that you never responded to? Yes. I wasn't comprehending. What, like the. Like the public announcement thing? Oh, like the Pat and Chuck posted? Yeah, yeah. So they posted that they cannot show you a home as of August 17th unless you have a buyer agency agreement signed, which is not true, at least not in my state. So what are they going to require? It's not, because that's not state specific. So in my state or wherever, we just have to have a free agency agreement signed before a showing. So I think that there's a lot of confusion of definition of buyer agency, because to me, it's an agency agreement. Not necessarily. It does not mean that it needs to be an exclusive agency agreement. It very well could be just a compensation agreement which shows where the compensation is coming from and then what would happen for different options of representation. So, yeah, I think that's where the confusion is because, like, a couple of my agents brought it to my attention and like, the way that it. I think the way that they sent it or said it was like a buyer broker agreement must be signed, which, like, for me, like a buyer broker agreement is the buyer agency agreement of you and I are willing to work together. And they basically said, you know, after August 17th, we cannot show your house without one of these. And then I think someone said, like, what about an open house? And they're like, yep, can't. Can't use it at the open house. And I was like, what the fuck? This is not true. And then, like, I think 12 people shared the post and I was like,. Oh, Jesus, freaking everywhere. But it's not. I mean, like, I feel like it's misleading. So then I. We had it on our legal hotline. I'm just trying to hop onto my computer. And it gave the differences of the. Because technically, like, we can still do a sub agency. So. To me, it's the. Whatever the document we want to call it. And I think that's where. By state, then there's different definitions of what the documents are, but it has to show the compensation and then that they are responsible for it. And. And then what the different relationships are available. It does not mean that you have to sign and agree with you and only work with you for the entirety of it. I think that's where a lot of people are going to, I think they're going to screw buyers essentially at the end of the day because they're going to try to force them to sign this agreement and say now they're under contract and the buyer had no clue what they were under, like what they were signing for. Well, and I think that, I think like in that post even it said something about like, if you want to look at that house, I'll refer you to someone else. Like that doesn't have to happen, but that's what everyone's saying. Like Sean, Caroline, he, he made his post about like, I won't show you the house, I'll refer you to someone else. Like also like, what if the client doesn't want that? Right. And now the other part of this too is if the agent says no, they're not going to work with somebody. And like if that is their protocol, that's one thing. Sure. Right. Like, I mean, I think that's where it's getting confusing. I think that people are thinking that it applies to like everyone and that's where everyone's just getting really confused. And I, I just feel like maybe we shouldn't be putting out these posts that are ambiguous as to what is really going on. Yeah, no, I, I definitely agree because I mean the mass. Majority of people don't even know what buyer agency is legitimately. So I don't know. I, I don't have enough. Like I was trying to pull up the NAR website real quick and I was going freaking slow. So I was going to try to see if it showed on there because that was one of the big things at the very beginning. Well, what about an open house? Yeah, the open house, if I remember correctly, as long as it's posted and like you have a sign in sheet, like, or like as long as it's disclosed out of compensation and what the options are again for representation, those are the two things that it needs to be. I'm trying to find our, our hot tips from Monday. Give me one second. Okay. Like this says when an agent is working with a buyer after August 17, can the agent ask the buyer to sign a disclosure to customer form or must it be a buyer agency agreement? Answer. The buyer still has all the same options the buyer has always had when working with a firm and its agent, but there are additional paperwork. I feel like that's where it's super misleading is that everyone thinks that there's this big Change as of August 17th and you can only work As a buyer's agent. Yeah, that's not correct. It's the, what, what is your association call it? A customer disclosure. Disclosure to customer. Disclosure to customer. Right. Like, because it talks about in there the compensation and then. Well, it doesn't currently, but it will. Yeah, but I mean, but then as long as that's there by the 17th and then you're having them sign that disclosure up front. That's what it is, not just the exclusive buyer agency agreement. Yeah. So this is like they're saying a pre agency. So when a buyer first meets an agent, they can choose to operate in pre agency for a limited amount of time. During pre agency, the agent and the buyer can get to know each other and discuss expectations. The agent and the agent's firm must remain neutral and cannot engage in negotiations on behalf of the buyer. One example of negotiations would be drafting an offer. An agent can show properties to a buyer during preagency, but as of the 17th, the firm must have a written agreement with the buyer before the agent tours the home. The WRA is developing a written agreement for an agent who wants to show properties to a buyer during pre agency. Right. So I think that's where people are getting super confused on a buyer agency agreement. Before you even look at a property, which if it works that way, great. Like that would be the greatest thing that you met with a client. They understood buyer agency, they signed the buyer agency agreement. But there will be plenty of people that do not understand. Absolutely. And the other thing there too is that like in our state we call that transaction broker. Right. Like you, you're just there to transact broker the transaction. You cannot have any sort of bias in it. You can't got, I mean you cannot provide your, your suggestions. Like you can only say these are the facts. Like I always say you're the referee, right? Like you're the referee, you're making sure that everybody's adhering to the law and to the ethics. And other than that, like that's all I can do. I can't advise you the transaction. So, and even in our state we have a disclosure, an agreement disclosing the transaction broker relationship. And so I want to say that even art already shows the look, the compensation that's in there. So in theory I can have them sign that and then once they're ready to have representation, then I would have them sign a buyer agency agreement showing that they are committed to work with me. And now I represent them and then kind of provide assistance as far as the advising them and suggesting and Moving them forward the transaction, working in their best interest. Right. Are you videotaping, Brandon, or recording? You are. What's that? Videotaping. Videotaping. I don't know. Recording. Same difference. Right. So then it says a client. If the buyer decides to be a client, the firm signs a buyer agency agreement with the buyer and the buyer becomes the firm's client. But then there's still the customer choice. So if the buyer decides to be a customer, the agent gives the buyer disclosure to customer and asks the buyer acknowledge by signing. Now the agent is either the listing agent working directly for a buyer customer or could be an agent with a sub agent. So we do a lot of sub agency. So it says NAR did not change Wisconsin law and did not alter the agency choices. Correct. It's just the disclosure aspect of it. Yeah. So why do you think that people are, are like focusing on that? You can't look at a property without a buyer agency. Like, why do you think that that's a misnomer right now? I mean, lack of education. I mean, I can't even say it's a lack of experience because some of these people have been in this industry. For freaking never wrote a buyer agency. Right. Never even. They don't understand it. Right. And back in the day in our market, everybody used to work for the seller anyway. So even in that transition when I was getting my license 15 years ago, a lot of people did not like the buyer agency because the seller was paying compensation. Hence why we are, are here. So I think it's just a matter of the truly understanding the, not only the law on the state level, but then what is required by nar. And I would, I would love to be able to see those people that are doing things incorrectly. Are they actually being involved within their association? Are they actually, you know, doing these professional development, listening to different perspectives and learning and broadening their, their, their thoughts on all of this or are they just putting their heads down being an ostrich and just saying, oh, it's going to bypass me. It's. I'm not going to affect me. Yeah. I mean, and I think that you're right. I've been in real estate for almost 12 years and after I got my buyer agency designation, I started doing it. And there were listing agents that were like, nope, we're not going to compensate you. And I was like, well, I mean, like you have it listed here that you are. So I'm not quite sure what you mean. So, I mean, I think it's had its definite battles throughout the year right there. That's another thing that is changing that. I think that people are missing the whole boat on is the mls, the multiple listing services is there to offer compensation and cooperation. Now the MLS is there to only offer cooperation. That is it, it's no more requirement for compensation. So that, that drops off and you know, the automatic assumption that oh, I'm going to get paid no matter what, like that's where people, they've never been able to express their value in my opinion and now they are going to walk into transactions having an extremely difficult time to be able to articulate their value to their buyer and or to their seller and say, hey, now you need to pay me out of pocket. Those people are going to have really uncomfortable time to be able to try to have that conversation because they haven't been practicing it. They don't know their true value prop. And that's why we're in this wonderful lawsuit now, right? I mean, and I think there, I think there, there's definitely an avenue for pre agency because I think that a buyer should be able to interview realtors and but I also think that realtors should be able to interview buyers because maybe you're not ready or will, you're not a ready, willing, able buyer or your expectations are unreal. And maybe we decide that I'm not the right fit for you and that's okay. But you know, you'd hate to get someone into an agreement and then you meet each other and then you're like this isn't gonna work, you know, and I like to think of it as a lot of times right in a small town, which I think you can relate to it's referral basis. So they've already known someone that met you. So that's a little bit easier I think to talk about the buyer, agency talk about representation versus a pure stranger that you got, you know, online or whatnot. I think that that's different. But I've also told staff like there are not going to be a lot of other agents that are having these true conversations with their buyers, right? So they might meet you, you're going to have this conversation. They might go meet another agent who does not have that conversation and then they're going to realize that there's a stark difference between people that are aware of what's going on. And so, you know, I've just, we've practiced buyer consult and knowing your worth, which I've already seen it change as far as people being, you know, the new discount broker and cutting Commissions and you know, to each their own and commissions are negotiable. But you know, I also value my time and time away from family and friends and the experience that we have to offer. And Right. Like you pay for, you get what you pay for. So you might not get as good of a service if you're just going with the lowest man on the totem pole. Well, valid point. Like going over and you know, if they are going to be interviewing multiple different buyers and even this is on the listing side. Right. If the that customer at that point, because they're not a client, if that customer is going to go interview, your presentation needs to be on point. You need to be on point. How you present yourself, what materials are you bringing to the table. Like making sure that you're going over the different items. For me, that's where you're going to have something tangible. We do hard back on books and so we make sure that everything is within there. So the more education that you can do up front, I think people fear that going into this buyer consult or whatever you want to call it, they, they fear of rejection and asking for money and compensation. But you do the same thing when you go to a listing. But if you're educating that buyer and they have all of this material that they now have in their hands that they can walk over to the, the lollipop stand down the, down the street, that's going to just sign them up on a buyer agency, they're going to not only see but they're going to experience and feel a totally different, totally different way and method. And that right there should be able to, if they're open and seeing this, that, that right there should show them that they need to come back over to you and not just go to the lollipop stand, that, that lollipop stand is not the, the best choice for you. Well, you make a really good point though. Right. For the longest time everybody worked on their listing presentations. So very well. Most listing presentations you're going up against two or three other agents and you have to give your value proposition and why they should work with you. And if we do take a step back, why isn't it the same for buyers? I mean you should be able to have buyers pick who they think is the best for them. And so I think you're right. Like having a buy buyer presentation book, having a buyer consult, giving buyers expectations of what the process looks like and what they need to have for out of pockets. You know, the more educated a buyer is, the more likely they are to have a great experience, refer you to family and friends, you know, and I think it's just a matter of really not falling into the mainstream media. And I mean I think we mentioned it the other day but like these mastermind groups and some of the crazy things you're seeing people say they're going to do or should they do. And I mean like it's mind boggling to me and I think that people need to like stay in their own lane and get educated. And I'm positive that everyone's local association is offering something. You know, if your broker can't help you, I sure hope your association is. I know that ours is like last week we had a, it was a C.E. It was a full, you know, one hour with lawyers and they made some great points. And you know I actually had an agent who's a little bit newer who has a friend that's an agent elsewhere. And I think, you know, my agent said something about the buyer, buyer, agency changes and the other agent was like what are you talking about? Right. And that also to me is. That is scary for sure. Well imagine now, I mean like I think it's so focused on, on consumer which we're here to protect the consumer. Right. Um, but we're protecting the consumer and that's been so focused on. What I don't think is being focused on is the education of the agent. So imagine having that co op deal now and on multiple different levels. I mean we. I have an email from a broker that refused to allow, allow commissions in the contract. Well, I have it from nar, I have it from our, the state association and our legal hotline and our legal counsel as well. Personal, all saying that is between the buyer and the seller. Nothing to do between the, the, the respective real estate companies. And so in an email he sent to me that he is refusing to submit that offer to that seller. Well that right there my friend, is illegal. And that right there will is an ethics violations. You had to present any and all offers regardless of how whatever the terms inside of it are. It's not your job as a broker or as an agent to be able to skim through there and say what a buyer or a seller is able to offer counteroffer and go back and forth. It's called negotiations like negotiate. It doesn't have anything to do with your feelings or your office policy or how you think you're going to handle your business. This is from a national level. DOJ is dictating how this is all going to be Done. But here you are on a local level as an independent broker trying to say how it's really going to happen, like they're going to get themselves in a world of hurt. And also this other thing that I like, I've always preached to, this is your terminology when you're dealing with another agent and how the agent is speaking to you as well. Now when you have a customer, that means that you're not representing them. That is a customer. And so therefore when you say my buyer, my seller, with you saying the word my, it's implying that you are now representing them. And so that is misrepresentation. All right there. But people, people as an agent, believe it or not, they're all opinionated and egotistical in my opinion, on a lot of different things. And they put their, their opinions and their emotions into this. So they'll take the negotiations as personal and they'll say, my buyer isn't going to do this. Well, my friend, you don't, you're not representing them. You can't say that. And even if you were, you cannot make decisions on behalf of the buyer. You can pass it on along. So I harp on our agents constantly on making sure how you say things, what you say to not only the, the co op agent but also to the, the consumer, regardless of their customer or client, making sure that you're extremely clear, even in the simplest of terminology. Well, I, you make a really good point about the, the my and just my personal opinion. I think that everyone should have to take the ABR course. Even if you don't want the ABR designation, I think that it should be a requirement as far as being a realtor is to take the two day course because it does talk a lot about terminology. It does talk about negotiating what you can say, what you can't say. And because there is such slim buyer agencies here and right. We have these other agents, but all of the time they'll get really wrapped up or say, you know, my buyer doesn't think that that's fair. My buyer wants this fixed and we think that the roof is bad and we think these things. And I always go back to the offer and look at line one and say, could you just remind me, were you an agent of the seller or were you an agent of the buyer? Which that never really goes over well. But I mean, it is a question because you're definitely not acting as an agent of the seller if you're getting, you know, all upset about it. So I think that same thing, like agents need to remember that they're supposed to be the professional in the transaction. So, and we get it. We've all been there. Like some super shitty situations happen. But if we could save our emotions for outside of the call with our client, right. They're looking for us to guide them. So if we come into the call with, oh my gosh, you are not going to believe what that other agent said or what that seller is doing. I mean, we've already set the stone, set the tone for it to not go well versus, you know, a simple phone call like, hey, so this came up. This is how I think we should approach it. No craziness, downfalls, etc. And I mean, I have been very aware of that. And they follow your lead. Like 90% of the time you'll get the crazy that nothing makes them happy, but they follow your lead. But that, that's where you're there to. That's in my opinion. I think we're here to remove the emotion out of the transaction. Could you imagine if you were to have a buyer and a seller not represented, not having other agent, an agent involved whatsoever, and they're sitting at the table and you have two extremely strong personalities going at it. Like they're not gonna get to the end of the closing table because they're putting their emotions in it. Um, you know, money is involved. Like, that's always gonna make things even more crazy. Um, but I think where this also is going to go a little haywire is the agents that are not educated on how the compensation is going to work, that do not include it or have some sort of method to be able to include it in the contract or an agreement, whatever we want to call it at the moment, however that looks, and then it gets to the closing table. So in the scenario saying that the buyer, agent did not ask for any compensation whatsoever, the seller then now is seeing there's no compensation to the buyer's agent and only having to pay one side of the commission. I guarantee you, when they get that cd, that final settlement statement, that alta, they're going to lose their ever living effing mind. They don't see their line item with their commission, and then they're going to throw a fit. But at the end of the day, that is what you negotiated, right? And so therefore you don't deserve to get paid. Well, I feel bad if I was the other agent on the other side probably a little bit, but if I'm representing the seller, I'm looking out for their best interest, their bottom line, and you chose not to educate yourself and know how to, to negotiate your own commission within the contract, however that may be, that's on you. You don't deserve to get paid. Right? I mean, that's going back to the experience, right? Like taking the time to learn the new regulations, taking time to explain it to both buyers and sellers. And you know, in preparation, a lot of sellers have heard the news and what they've heard and how they've interpreted it are very different than what reality is, you know, so it'll be why? So I don't have to pay you, right? And I'm. No, no, that's not quite how that works. I mean, maybe somebody can get away with that for, but not me. This is why we charge what we charge, you know. But I think that when you just actually sit down and explain it to them, a lot of them, I mean, it makes sense. Like, yep, I get that. And we let them know like how buyer's agents might be compensated. There are different ways, which also makes sense to them, which also plays into negotiation. And I mean that's the other thing I fear is that, you know, some of these agents that aren't educated are going to sign a listing contract, not explain to the seller what compensation to others might look like or might come through in an offer. And then it's going to come through in an offer and the seller is going to be extremely confused as to why it's being addressed in an offer. And I think that that's going to lead to its own problems, if you will. So I mean, I think it just goes back to, you know, pure education as to. If you're listening to this right now and you don't have a good idea of what we're talking about, I mean, you gotta start digging in like immediately. Cause we're, you know, like less than 45 days. Like the, the issue I think here is that people are afraid of the confrontation on the upfront with this. But in reality, I think when people really get mad is when there are these hidden fees. I mean, if you look at, look at the history of the wireless industry, right? Like all of these hidden fees at the very end, everybody surcharges and all of that, like everybody threw a fit about it. And it's because the price that was quoted up front is totally different than what the actual bill is. And I mean, that's why people don't like contracts. And I think that that is why so many, this evolution of our, not just our industry, just the, the whole world, we, we had all these contracts we're trying to stick everybody to. And then all of a sudden now it's a no contract world. And then with a no contract world, I think that we have a lot of people misinterpreting things, not understanding things truly, et cetera, et cetera. And then now we're having to force back into that contract world. So there's a whole, you know, process that had happened. And it's our job, just as I said earlier, to educate and to protect the, the consumer, regardless if we're representing them or not. Like, we're here under the code of ethics to ensure that we're protecting the, the public. So making sure that all that is spelled out. And I don't think that there's going to be that many people. And if there are, like, if you have the conversation up front there, they're mad. Just imagine how much more mad they would be at the end of the conversation or at the end of the transaction. And all of a sudden, you know, here's a big old sticker price that you now have to pay me that you're responsible for that. Maybe they're not able to financially afford it. Well, that's like part of the, you know, I think in a listing presentation, right? Like you should be doing an estimated net proceeds sheet so your seller has an idea. And you know, I know that you are a big proponent on the other side too of buyer sheet. So, you know, I think that that's a really good avenue is. And I, at least in this market, I don't think anyone was doing that. But sure, a buyer has their expenses with their lender, but what other expenses do they have? So in that buyer consult, right, like, what does a home inspection cost? What does an appraisal cost? What does a radon cost? You have earnest money. Do you need a closing cost credit? You know, and then yes, a buyer agency would be like, if we can tell them that, you know, up front, like, it may very well dictate what house they're looking at as far as price points. And same thing, you'd hate to get to the day of closing and then be like, hey, by the way, you owe the bank X and this company Y. And then they say, I don't have that. Like, we can't go to closing. Like, can you imagine what fallout would happen then? It's just insane. Again, you do it or you're supposed to do it at a listing. Why is it any different on the buying side? Why is it so structured on the selling side? But so loosey goosey on the buy side. Never understood that whatsoever. I had a client one time when I told them, like, here's a buyer's estimate in that sheet. And she was like, no, we don't do that. That's the lender's job. Well, if the lender's not local, like how do you know, like title, how to, recording fees, all of these different things. Like every market is completely different how the contract reads. And for me, if you are going to be negotiating on behalf of a buyer and a seller, whichever way you want to look at it. Like, how do you negotiate numbers if you don't know the numbers? Let that sink in. Like if you don't know how to do a buyer net sheet and you are just out here negotiating saying you're working in the best interest, how in the flipping world are you supposed to go to a contract without everything that we're negotiating is all about the numbers. But you don't have a single, you know, standing platform like whatsoever to move off of. It's just whatever you're going to pull out of thin air and throw it onto a contract. Yep, that looks good. I don't think that's working in the best interest of the buyer whatsoever. Well, and right. Like this is typically somebody's biggest purchase that they're going to make in their lives. So why not help educate them? And sometimes when we go over what out of pocket costs are, they'll be like, you know what? I should probably save for six months to make this a little bit more realistic. I would much rather have that conversation with someone that like, hey, we probably need to save another, you know, three or $4,000 to make this smooth versus not. And then same thing like them feeling stuck or them feeling house poor or they empty out their savings account in order to move forward. So the, you know, there's, there's other products that are out there too to be able to, like this is where you have to be creative in anytime you're dealing with people and negotiations. Like, if you, if you were to come to me as a buyer with that same scenario, I don't have this money right now. Let's save. Like there's a product out there that basically think of it just like a GoFundMe, but specifically for buyer's costs. Right. Like you can have people contribute to it. They, there's a lot of different ways. I mean, I know there's a lot of different mortgage companies that have stuff like this, but I would be able to talk to you like, hey cool, if you're getting married, let's put that on your wedding registry. And now instead of asking for a trip to Bora Bora, maybe we can ask some people to be able to contribute to your closing cost if that's what you chose to be able to do. I think people want to help you in, you know, around and instead of contributing to just a trip or buying know a coffee maker or whatever it may be, I think you're more apt to get more money out of others individuals donating to this type of GoFundMe for buyers, closing cost type of credit. So there's products out there to be able to help combat and help the buyer. It's not like they have to come up with absolutely everything out of pocket. Yeah, I mean there's like, you know, government programs like down payment plus, like again and it goes back to, we've talked about like a local lender. They're going to know those programs. That big box lender more than likely doesn't even have access to those funds. Right. We had a seller which this, the last week or so basically tell one of our agents like they were going to offer or they only wanted to pay a certain percentage. Right. And the agent was like, no, that's, that's not, that's not what we're, we're doing. That's not our, our fee. And, and he goes, well, the media says that it's negotiable. Yeah, it is negotiable. Absolutely. We can negotiate. But if I don't agree with that number, I don't have to move forward. You don't get to name the price and force me into it. You can negotiate all you want. If we come to terms, then great. If we don't come to terms, then move on to the, the discount boxed on the store. And I also think a lot of people don't understand that it's the negotiations aspect of it, even from right there with the sellers. And I love to tell a seller when, when they say, well agent that was just right here before you. They, they said that they would do it for, you know, whatever apples. And my, my comeback there is how quickly did you get them to come down off of that number? And typically the seller is pretty proudful to be able to say oh, that was super easy and got them down and you know, a matter of seconds. Then I asked the seller, is that who you really want to be handling your equity and negotiating for you on your behalf? If they're not willing to negotiate and stick to their number. And it was that quick to give them all that cash for themselves. How quick do you think they're going to give up cash for you? Yeah, come on. Like when you put things in perspective for people to understand real life scenarios, yes, you're pushing back and you're holding them accountable, but it's stopping them in their tracks to be able to think differently because they may have been educated with false information. Right. And that's what they believe. And perspective, there's reality. So it's our job to be able to position it and pivot a little bit so for them to see it from a different perspective. But I know that I'm not going to want to go with somebody that is able to give up a couple apples really quickly. Like, I want to keep all the apples that I possibly can. I want, like that's my investment. So this, this goes around, I mean, on so many different levels. And you know, I think it's hyper focused with media and with everything going on, obviously about negotiations. But in reality, I don't think there's a lot of people that are out there that truly know how to negotiate. They're more so order takers and they just take down what people are saying and not trying to work in their best interest and be creative and find different solutions. They're just worried about their, their commission at the end of the day and that's it. It's not fair. I think a good book for people that might struggle with that is never split the difference. Really good book. Yeah. So I mean, if you're looking for help and you know, like, I think negotiating comes with time and it comes with experience, you know, but again, it also goes back to knowing your worth too. So, you know, a lot of times I like to ask sellers, like, what would you like for me to give up? Then? You know, and then they kind of look at you and like, I don't know, are you gonna go to work and get paid X amount less every day and do the same thing and then they kind of chuckle and we move on. Yeah. Again, you're putting it in perspective for them. You're putting it in like you're allowing them to see it through your eyes. But you, they, you have to be able to stand in their shoes for them to be able to see it. So cool. Great conversation. Love it. Uh, I feel like this is something that we've talked about multiple times and it's not going to go anywhere. I feel here we're just getting started and the mayhem is going to be coming way more than what we have ever thought to experience before. So buckle up, buttercup, because we're about to go through a whole little bit of turbulence here. Yes, but we will be here to guide as much as we can. And I'm sure we'll have plenty of more conversations about what that looks like after August 17th and experiences that we might learn along the way. And we're happy to share those. Perfect. Thanks for tuning in, guys. See you next time. If you've enjoyed today's episode, please like subscribe and share with others. 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